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Thursday, August 28, 2008

Former Senator Tom Daschle Trashes America

Steve Sibson at Sibby Online points a finger to former senator Tom Daschle's anti-Americanism.

From KELO:

"In less than a decade we've gone from being perceived as being the beacon of Democracy and justice all over the globe to a country whose government has little respect even for the most basic tenants of human rights."

Daschle also mentions World War II, but this statement shows that his grasp of history is spotty, at best.

His trashing of his own country (and mine) is undoubtedly a reference to our incarceration of terrorists and attempts to get information from them in order to prevent the next terrorist slaughter of innocent lives.

Daschle, if he thinks real hard, might remember that in war, it is normal for humane countries to incarcerate enemy soldiers to prevent them from continuing to fight against and kill our soldiers. And they usually remain there until the war is over. With no trials that treat war like a law enforcement issue.

That is a preferable solution, rather than the one terrorists use: shoot, blow up, stab, slash, burn, etc.

Which side is the more humane here? Daschle would do well to give his own country a little credit.

When we extract information from terrorists, we do so to save lives, not for sadistic enjoyment or thrills. And while we might use loud music or barking dogs, we don't behead or use drills and blow torches.

Daschle might give his own country a little credit there, too.

Perhaps Daschle's incapability to appreciate his own country is one of the reasons why he is a former U.S. senator.


Braden said...

So someone who loves his country only talks about what a great place it is, and never about the wrongs it is committing? Does someone who tries to correct perceived wrongs in his country make him anti-American? Wouldn't you expect that someone who loves his country would want to change it if it was doing wrong?

You seem to think that America can commit no evil. Well, America is made up of people, and people make mistakes. People commit evil, sometimes even in the spirit of trying to do good. It seems reasonable to me that a nation of people could make mistakes too.

Now since you seem to think that America is never wrong, obviously torture is ok as well, as long as its America that's doing it. Countries do incarcerate enemy soldiers, but humane and decent ones do not torture them. Especially countries that pride themselves on being the greatest on Earth. The Geneva Conventions were not written for easy and breazy times. They were written for times like these. You can't just say, "Oh, we're at war, so these rules don't apply." That's when they apply most!

It's true, the other side doesn't follow the rules of war. But the other side is not being fought by American soldiers, it is being fought by thugs. The other side is not the hope of the free world, they are monsters. To hold American soldiers to even close to the same standard as terrorist is an insult to them. Americans do not torture and kill innocent civilians, and when they do, they must be held accountable.

Republicans like to return to the old tactics of McCarthyism whenever they have run out of arguments. Somehow the argument 'If you don't agree with what America does 100% of the time, then you hate it' seems to fly with some of you. Questioning one's patriotism is childish and an act of desperation. Tell me why torture does not equal cruel and unusual punishment, and is therefore OK. Tell me why we should have attacked a country that did not attack us. Those are legitimate arguments. Not, "I love America more than you, so blah." This is a democracy: I don't have to agree with anybody if I don't want to. Dissent, especially when the country is committing wrong, is perfectly patriotic.

Anonymous said...

Very well said, Braden. I'd even go one step further and say that dissent is not only perfectly patriotic, but also ESSENTIAL. Yet Bob condemns dissenters like Daschle and childishly says that they're "trashing" America for speaking their mind about a perceived wrong that their country is committing; and they do it because they CARE about their country and want people to be aware of their government's wrongdoings. And this is considered anti-American?!

This article is pointless and says nothing. It's just the rant of a paranoid neo-con.

By the way, Bob, nice touch at the end with that final dig at Daschle. VERY mature.

cp said...

The main reason South Dakota decided to retire a great senator (and arguably the second most poitically powerful office in the US) from representing them is because they were decieved by a craven effort of character assassination, led by Bob Ellis and other paragons of virtue, including gay male prostitute, White House frequent visitor, and Talon "News" blogger "Jeff Gannon".

It's a crying shame.

Bob Ellis said...

Braden, you haven't said anything that the original post doesn't already refute.

Loud music and barking dogs isn't "torture." Broken bones, power drills in the body, sticking things under finger and toe nails and so on...those things are torture.

Nobody's saying we're perfect. But when we find out that someone has done something wrong, we prosecute them for the wrongdoing. We take care of it. In many other countries, if someone finds out military or government officials have done something wrong, the finder gets shot and buried in the nearest unmarked grave, and the wrong goes on.

It's pathetic that so many Americans have lost their moral compass so completely that they can't see the difference.

It is so much easier to just say "Everybody's bad, including us."

And we haven't attacked any countries that haven't attacked us or our allies. Afghanistan harbored and trained the terrorists who attacked us on 911. Iraq attacked Kuwait and we liberated Kuwait. Saddam subsequently failed to live up to the cease fire agreement, so we went back and finished the job. And during that time, Iraq fired on U.S. and British aircraft hundreds of times.

Honestly, if I thought America was the evil place liberals seem to, I'd have moved somewhere else a long time ago.

But I guess it's easier to reap the fruits of this wonderful country...while childishly bashing it.

Bob Ellis said...

Anonymous 9:35, bashing one's country while ignoring the crimes of others is patriotic, huh. Spoken like a true anti-American.

I've already refuted everything you've said here, so there's no point in repeating myself.

However, I'm curious why you called me a "neo-con." Do you even know what that means? You can go look it up before replying if you need to.

Bob Ellis said...

CP: That...or the bashing of the president Daschle did on the eve of the Iraq invasion...or his Jaguar...or his fancy mansion...or his statement that he was a resident of D.C. (not South Dakota)...or simply that his extremely liberal record finally came to light.

There's a lot to choose from; take your pick.

Steve Sibson said...

Dissenters of the American way are anti-American. But you do have the free-speech right to be anti-American, and I have the free-speech right to call it anti-American.

Braden said...

Mr. Ellis, if you don't think the US is committing torture, I can't help you. But I can give you a list of things the Pentagon admits have occurred and let you determine whether you think they are torture:

-Urinating on detainees

-Jumping on detainee's leg (a limb already wounded by gunfire) with such force that it could not thereafter heal properly

-Continuing by pounding detainee's wounded leg with collapsible metal baton

-Pouring phosphoric acid on detainees

-Sodomization of detainees with a baton

-Tying ropes to the detainees' legs or penises and dragging them across the floor

And that was only at one location. Human Rights First knows of at least 46 detainees that have been tortured to death by US forces, not by dogs or loud music either. If you don't think these acts constitute torture, seek help.

"Iraq attacked Kuwait and we liberated Kuwait. Saddam subsequently failed to live up to the cease fire agreement, so we went back and finished the job. And during that time, Iraq fired on U.S. and British aircraft hundreds of times."

Those weren't the reasons we were given. The American people knew all about the Gulf War. We knew that American pilots patroling the no-fly zone were being fired at. What the Bush Administration told us was that Iraq was in possession of chemical and biological weapons, and that he was dangerously close to a nuclear weapon and was seeking to obtain one. We were also told that Iraq had connections to 9/11, and that Saddam was trying to pass his WMD's off to terrorists to commit new attacks on the US. We were told we had to begin the first offensive war in American history before the smoking gun came as a mushroom cloud. These things were not true.

"Honestly, if I thought America was the evil place liberals seem to, I'd have moved somewhere else a long time ago."

Again, as I told you in the first post: correcting our mistakes does not mean you think your country is evil. That is something conservitaves will repeat over and over. So since you want to change the American position on abortion, does that mean you hate America. Why can't you just accept what your country does? Does the fact that you want to improve your country mean you hate it? Absolutely not, and it's stupid and immature to say so.

Bob Ellis said...

I don't have any verified knowledge of some of these allegations, but assuming that you (and those making the allegations) are accurate: haven't we dealt with these properly?

I seem to remember trials for soldiers who mistreated prisoners; as I said, you won't see that in many other countries (they'd get a medal, and anyone who reported them would get a bullet in the head).

I'd also be curious to know where HRF was during Saddam's atrocities.

As for the reasons for the Iraq invasion, you should go back and check again. The Persian Gulf war was the reason we were attempting WMD inspections, and the reason for those 17 UN resolutions Saddam thumbed his nose at, and the reason our planes were in the area getting fired at--that and protecting Saddam's own people from being exterminated by Saddam.

And yes, everyone, including foreign intelligence agencies and Bill Clinton, believed Saddam had WMDs or was close to having the capability. And given that we gave Saddam 8 months time to prepare during our "rush to war," it's no surprise that many in the intelligence community, both here and in other countries, believe many of those materials were smuggled out of Iraq and into Syria.

I would suggest you read this post I did some time back based on the overwhelming case for the invasion:

Don't believe the history revisionists at MoveOn.org or the DNC. Do some research for yourself.

You might also read this one on the 911 connection: http://www.dakotavoice.com/2008/07/milestones-on-road-to-iraq.html. And there remain thousands of documents yet to be translated...with some that have been translated continuing to point to Saddam's terrorist connections.

To your final point, as I've said, we correct our mistakes where most other nations around the world either sweep them under the rug. And some of us are in the process of trying to correct the abomination that is abortion.

But perhaps the most telling difference you see in patriotism and love for America between the Left and the Right is this: conservatives love America's historic roots and ideals, always have a LONG list of good things to say about our great country, and we defend our country from all attacks foreign and domestic even as we try to right the wrongs; liberals despise America's heritage, attempt to erase it or pretend it never happened, want to take America as far away from our heritage and ideals as possible, and just never ever seem to have anything nice to say about our country.

Liberals can say they love America all day long...but their actions say the opposite, and it's pretty darn clear.

If I talked about my wife the way liberals talk about America, she'd have left me a long time ago--and would have been right to do so.

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