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Friday, October 24, 2008

A Letter from a Christian in 2012 in Obama's America

Focus on the Family Action has published a hypothetical letter from a Christian written in the year 2012 after four years of a Barack Obama presidency.

The Letter from 2012 in Obama’s America is a startling but very possible--even likely--glimpse of what could happen.

Obama has made it clear that he plans to gut marriage and the family, and push a radical homosexual agenda for America.

He has also made it plain that he plans to gut our national defense. He also says he would engage in direct talks with belligerent leaders and nations like Iran.

Barack Obama has also proven he is the most pro-abortion presidential candidate in history, having vehemently defended the killing of infants born alive after failed attempts to abort them.

Barack Obama has also shown his contempt for serious Christians and law-abiding gun owners.

Barack Obama has long associations with people who loathe America like his racist, anti-American pastor of 20 years, his Chicago associate the domestic terrorist Bill Ayers, and his wife who only this year found a reason to be proud of her country for the first time.

God help us if the American people are insane enough to elect Barack Obama to the presidency. We will need every ounce of God's divine providence and protection we can get.

A letter from 2012 shows how a Democratic regime could undermine religious freedoms, the sanctity of human life and marriage.


28 comments:

Haggs said...

Yet another example of how conservatives are complete idiots.

I thank God that America is voting these people out of office.

Bob Ellis said...

So only a complete idiot would want to avoid seeing this kind of scenario happen? Because, if you check the footnotes, you'll find that much of this has already started or has been attempted here in the U.S. or in other Western nations; therefore, only a complete idiot would believe it couldn't happen under an Obama administration--especially when Obama has already indicated his desire to promote this agenda.

So aren't Christ-followers complete idiots in your book, too?

Haggs said...

I didn't say all Christians are idiots. I'm a Christian. It's the conservatives who are the idiots.

Some of the things in that letter are just dumb. The Boy Scouts disbands? No more reciting the Pledge of Allegiance? Porn on network TV? None of those thing will happen and if you think they will happen under an Obama presidency than you're an idiot.

What this ammounts to is fear mongering. Like the part that says if Obama wins American cities will be bombed by terrorists. That's utter nonsense and it's only trying to scare people into voting for McCain. America deserves better than that.

There was one thing in that letter I want to see happen. I do believe some people in the Bush administration should be charged with crimes. Not all, certainly, but I do think there are some guilty parties in there. I would, at the very least, like someone to look into it.

In the end, the only thing we can be sure of is that Obama and McCain can't be any worse presidents than George W. Bush.

Bob Ellis said...

Well, this was written from a Christian perspective, so you must think all Christians are idiots. Recall that it was signed "A Christian from 2012" and has a Biblical basis for its religious truth claims. And Christians are the ones who will be affected the most by Obama's radical unGodly agenda, as indicated by the scenarios outlined here. So Christians must be idiots to think that it's bad for these things to happen, or that these things will happen (which they almost certainly will).

People who don't take their faith seriously will probably be alright. But people who take God seriously and have resolved to obey Him are in for a world of hurt.

Obama has the most radical agenda to change America since FDR. And since FDR had to fight to put in place the apparatus he used to fundamentally alter America from the way it was from the founding to that point, and Obama already has that apparatus in place, he will likely make FDR's damage to the country pale in comparison. You should read my recent piece at Red County to learn more about this.

Is it fear mongering to warn of dire consequences if you drink poison? Is it fear mongering to warn that if you walk into a pit of snakes, you're likely to have serious problems?

This isn't fear mongering; this is a dire warning of an all-too-likely scenario if America is foolish and reckless enough to elect Barack Obama to the presidency.

If we do, we'll definitely deserve what we get. But lots of innocent people will suffer for it, along with those who willfully sold us down the path to ruin.

para911 said...

This is the biggest load of crap I have ever read....EVER.

Bob Ellis said...

Then get your head out of the sand, para911, and perhaps it'll be a little clearer.

If you check the footnotes all the way through this, you'll find that for pretty much everything in here, it's already happening, being tried, or the foundation has been laid.

If any of this is important to you, keeping your head in the sand won't keep you safe.

Jim said...

Dear believers, this letter and other utterances by Christian leaders during this election time signal some of the saddest days in Americans Christianity. These sorts of letters do not reflect Christ’s teachings or God’s word at all. Rumor, conjecture, fear-mongering and falsehoods are completely not compatible with the message of Christ. I am a Christian and will be voting for Barrack Obama. I am pro-life. But abortion is just one issue among many issues affecting this country. Obama has stated that while he has no intention of making abortion illegal, he will work on policies that will tackle some of the causes of “unwanted” pregnancies, while at the same time, working the individuals, their families and spiritual leaders, help to find options for pregnant women who would want to seek abortion by exploring adoption or other assistance related to keeping the baby. What is the evangelical Churches plan? I haven’t heard any plan (apart from individual ministries in churches here and there, I have not heard any plan on helping people in this sort of situation from the loudest of critics or their organizations, other than condemnation. President Bush, who is a Christian never reversed Roe vs Wade, why should we judge Obama more harshly when he hasn’t even been president?. Wake up people! Judges are not just appointed by a President. They have to be vetted by congress, so it is not as easy as this letter claims! Anyway, whether legal or not, abortion, like all other human activities, will continue. It is a reflection of the human condition of sinfulness. There are laws against stealing and killing...have they changed the fact that these events take place? No. Is it because of Bush, or Clinton or whomever President that these things take place? No. So my dear brethren, let us focus on what God called us to, not on distractions (see verse below).

On fairness, or the lack thereof, how come we Christians haven’t challenged McCain's campaign use of lies and distortions of truth, and his painting being Muslim as something to be equated with terrorism? Isn’t that being unfair to another religion in a country where religious freedom is allowed? How different are we then from countries where Christianity is marginalized, and where we pray for our persecuted brethren? Yet aren’t we guilty of not standing up when Muslims are being persecuted, and worse still, when we are the ones throwing the biggest stones (Remember: “he that hath no sin, let them cast the first stone”!). This letter is crying foul about the possibility of Christianity being marginalized, yet we stand aside as believers of another faith are vilified because some people of their faith who mis-interpret their scripture have done despicable evil? Who are we to judge whether Obama or McCain is a Christian or not?

Just for the record, God is pro-choice...i.e. He has allowed human beings FREE WILL to choose or reject His message. The Christian Church in collaboration with whoever wrote this misleading letter is subjecting its flock to fear-mongering and rumors because it cannot face to the facts of its failure in being subjective and un-Christ-like, and not standing for justice of the downtrodden.

Thankfully, not every Christian believes the nonsense contained in the "Letter from a Christian 2012", or other terrible lies coming out of the mouth of some really loud Christians on their very visible soapboxes. My prayer is with them, though, that God's truth and light will show them the right way.

This is my advice: go out there and vote for whomever you choose, because no human being is going to change consequences of the sinful state of another human being. Only Christ can transform people. Vote for a man or woman whose integrity you have seen (not just heard about). Test all men/women against a wide range of issues and conduct. Then make your pick. If you are unsure, pray and God will guide you. Don’t rely on such misleading letters and “foolish” advice.

The sorts of things this letter speaks of (homosexuality, abortion etc), existed even before Christ was born and will continue to exist whether or not there are human laws against them, and irrespective of who is President. The role of the Church is to stand for truth, on all counts, to set high standards and stand on the integrity of God's word. This letter fails the test of truth, grace and love for sinners. If Obama wins, how is the Church going to pray for him (as we have been commanded to do for all people in authority), if already they have been poisoned by this "predicted" doom? Love has to co-exist with Hope and Faith.

In 2012, this country will still be a great country. God-fearing people will be living as exemplified by Christ, loving people who are currently being condemned by this article (e.g. by their sexual orientation or whatever else they have done in the past), and showing Christ's love through responsible and prayer-led commentary on current affairs. It is only by doing this that people will be drawn to Christ. It is only Christ who can effect life-transforming change in people’s individual lives. This is God's way. After all, Jesus did not come into this world to condemn it, but to save it. He spend time with sinners and tax-collectors, who in modern day would be whomever you think is the worst category of people. Obama's presidency, if he wins, will be a time of great renewal and integrity, in my opinion, based on how he has run his campaign, vs McCain's lies and distortions! Did any of you read the note Obama wrote at the Wailing Wall when he visited Israel? It was a prayer of humility. He is now visiting with his ailing grandma (God bless her). Many years ago, when he was a student, and not yet a believer, he gave helped pay a strangers excess luggage fee at Miami airport (although the stranger said she would return the money and she did). There are countless stories…What more attributes do you want to see? This man is a Christian. Period. Let God judge the rest.

1 Peter 2:11-17
Dear friends, I urge you, as aliens and strangers in the world, to abstain from sinful desires, which war against your soul.

Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us.

Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right.

For it is God's will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men. Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God.

Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king.

amanda.k said...

Irrational scare tactics - the only thing sadder than the people who write those fanatical statements are the people who actually believe those statements are true.

John said...

LOL! What a load of unadulterated CRAP. Thank God that starting November 5th we won't have to listen to the demented ravings of the right-wingnut lunatics and their perverted alternate reality.

Viator said...

How humiliating for Christians that James Dobson and this kind of garbage even pretends to represent us. It's this sort of distinctly UN-Christian hatred and fear mongering that is tearing people apart and precipitating disasterous consequences, not the falsehoods this bent-minded letter alleges will happen.

Temet Nosce said...

You know, there are a lot of things wrong with this so-called "biblical-based letter", but let's start off with the introduction....

"The most reliable way of predicting people’s future actions is by looking at their past actions. Jesus himself taught, “You will recognize them by their fruits” (Matthew 7:16)."

This is so true. Like how George W. Bush was a failure at every business venture he ever undertook or was gifted to him by his family connections. Eight years ago I could have wrote a letter that could not possibly have anticipated he would go down as quite possibly the most inept, ineffectual president in history, doing unprecedented damage to every sector of a America and diminishing our standing and leadership in the world. Yet here we are. Or you know, John McCain being an adulterous braggart with a short fuse and a predilection towards using violence to solve problems. Surely that kind of resume would be far better for the country, the world, and certainly Christians than that evil liberal B. Hussein Osama.

The whole premise of this letter is automatically coming from a false and dishonest place. Is the sum total of Christ's sermons about taking a narrow skewed view of a few passages in the bible and spinning them into an agenda that is solely based on hating gays, rejecting any scientific learning post-rejection of an Earth-centered universe, and clinging for dear life to your guns so you can kill abortion doctors!?

If this is the kind of "Christian" you are, then I can accept the premise of this letter. If, however, your faith comes from a pure place, uninfected by base, Earthly politics then everything in this letter is pure polemical scare tactics and fear-mongering. There isn't the slightest iota of anything resembling consensual reality in this so-called letter from a "Christian".

Obviously, I could go on a point-by-point refutation of every ridiculous "concept" floated by this poorly-educated author, but that would be a waste of my time and anyone who bothered to read it. The basic argument here boils down to Republicans are conservatives, conservatives are Christians, what's good for Christians is good for America (and by extension, the whole world).

Where have you been for the last 30 years!? Of our last four presidents, three of them have essentially bankrupted America. Abortion, poverty, disease, war, hunger, environmental disaster, and the suppression of individual liberties have skyrocketed all across the globe. And that remaining one of those four was no prize pig himself. This so-called "Liberal Utopia" that is being floated as the inevitable result of an Obama presidency is not only disingenuous, it blindly and obtusely ignores any real factual information. Quite frankly, it's racist, bigoted, hateful, spiteful, ignorant, arrogant, and incredibly hypocritical.

Look, fanaticism knows no allegiance, conservative or liberal, right or left, communist or fascist. This simplistic, ideologically-challenged demonization as presented here is precisely what the bible preaches against. Which you would know if you'd made any effort to read the bible yourself, use the brain God gave you, and interpret said reading in a holistic manner. In this day and age, any bible verse, any news source, any event anywhere can be selectively edited down to support just about anything. That's human nature. But the True Path as delivered by God is to overcome such petty things. God's Words are meant to uplift and save, not suppress and harass. The appropriation presented here most certainly does not pass the smell test.

Bob, I will add you and the author of this farce to my prayers. May God have mercy upon your immortal soul.

Temet Nosce said...

"Your comment has been saved and will be visible after blog owner approval."

"The Land of the Free" indeed...

walkplanners said...

If Obama wins, there will be a great deal of power in leftist hands with little to balance it from the right. That's bad for our country, which calls for "checks and balances" in government.We will have the most radical senator become president and the 3rd most radical become vice president. There will be a very liberal congress, practically in lockstep with the executive branch. Most dangerously, all that executive and congressional power will be supported by an ulta left-leaning media, who are as loyal to Obama as the Russian press was to Stalin.
The Supreme Court will be split, with liberals having a slight upper hand. That is close to absolute power!

The Obama people seem to get their philosophy of government, and a great deal else, not from the Constitution and the traditions of this country, but from militant Marxism, refined, sugar-coated and adapted to the American environment. I fear Obama's extraordinary charisma is being used to conceal a hideous agenda. I greatly fear (and fear is the apt word here) they intend, without checks and balances to hinder them, to force that adapted Marxist system on our country. In short, I fear we may be realizing Lincoln's great fear that "America could be destroyed from within". If it turns out that I'm a "complete idiot", I will be only too happy to stand corrected, but I doubt it.

Dominick Leone said...

The letter from 2012 is just another example of the radical right's fear machine. Like a paranoid schizophrenic's delusions, this group is perpetually afraid: of Taliban, Hezbula, Gays, Liberals, and the list goes on and on and on.

For any sane christian, I recommend you read the letter and take note of the tone. Frantic and fearful, the "letter" carefully creates a world of fiction from mere speculation. Do not let FEAR dominate your reason. Fear is an agent of evil, for it leads to distrust, anger and hate. These are contrary to the principles of Christ.

Open your hearts, minds, and soul to the will of God and his message of LOVE. Do not let these false prophets lead you into evil. Examine their fruits: bombings, doctor killings, hateful rhetoric, etc.

God Bless,

Dominick A. Leone

Dominick Leone said...

The letter from 2012 is just another example of the radical right's fear machine. Like a paranoid schizophrenic's delusions, this group is perpetually afraid: of Taliban, Hezbula, Gays, Liberals, and the list goes on and on and on.

For any sane christian, I recommend you read the letter and take note of the tone. Frantic and fearful, the "letter" carefully creates a world of fiction from mere speculation. Do not let FEAR dominate your reason. Fear is an agent of evil, for it leads to distrust, anger and hate. These are contrary to the principles of Christ.

Open your hearts, minds, and soul to the will of God and his message of LOVE. Do not let these false prophets lead you into evil. Examine their fruits: bombings, doctor killings, hateful rhetoric, etc.

God Bless,

Dominick A. Leone

Dr. Theo said...

I suppose that many of the sincere Christians who have posted comments above would also think that Bible passages such as the first chapter of Romans are nothing but fear mongering and irrational scare tactics. None seem able to logically refute the premise of a single point.

The admittedly speculative outcomes described in this letter are logical extensions of positions, beliefs and actions that are well-documented in recent years. When the requisite particulars are in place, e.g., a liberal-dominated Supreme Court, there will be little constraint on the advancement of the Left's agenda, including most of the issues described in this letter.

Thanks to an earlier court ruling, Americans will have the means of last resort to resist tyranny and that is why one of the first actions of a liberal court will be to disarm citizens. I don't see that happening without a general insurrection. No, I don't think all these things will come to pass exactly as proposed, but my father taught me to always pray for the best and prepare for the worst.

Bob Ellis said...

There have been a number of disturbing comments left here in the past 12 hours. Rather than address them with a separate comment to each one, for the sake of brevity, I will address the more noteworthy ones in one comment here.

The fact that there are adult, supposedly educated Americans who can promote immorality so casually, who can so blindly ignore the glaring danger signs, and some who claim to do so under the banner of "Christianity"...it really makes me fearful for our nation.

It also makes me more sad than I can express in text at how badly authentic Christians have failed our society for the past 60 years. If we had been doing our job as the "salt and light" that God has called us to be, there wouldn't be this kind of strong delusion on our nation.

But I want to do what I can here to rebuke and correct the deadly error which has been proffered in the comments here. A lie left unchallenged quickly becomes accepted as the truth, so these lies must be challenged.

JIM:

Did you even bother to read this letter at all? I cannot believe that you did, since you seem to think it is unfounded "fear-mongering." Did you take any note at all of the footnotes and references to articles which demonstrate that the kind of developments described are either/or (1) already happening in the U.S., (2) already happening in other Western nations, (3) is already being attempted in the U.S. (4) Obama has specifically stated his intent to bring these things about.

For instance, Obama has said his first act as president would be to institute the Freedom of Choice Act which would wipe out pretty much every abortion restriction passed at a state or federal level in the past 30 years; in other words, abortion on demand on a scale we've never seen before.

Obama has also vehemently fought to maintain the legality of infanticide. When he was an Illinois senator, the legislature worked on a law to make it illegal to kill babies born alive after failed attempts to abort them (you should read the personal testimonies from at least one nurse of how these children are placed in a broom closet for hours until they die). A law preventing this was passed at a federal level, but Obama was a strongly vocal opponent of protecting these children at the state level.

You also seem amazingly ignorant of the help many churches and ministries are ALREADY giving to women in unplanned pregnancies. Every major community of any size throughout the country has a crisis pregnancy center or pregnancy resource center which provides counseling, community resource references, maternity clothes, baby clothes, diapers, baby food, and many other services. Many churches also do this. There are also adoption agencies such as Bethany Christian Services, and other foster and adoption initiatives by churches and ministries such as the South Dakota Family Policy Council.

As to judges, my goodness, man! Read this letter again! How can you make such an ignorant statement? Judges are nominated by the president and are almost always confirmed by the congress, regardless of whether the president and congress are in opposing parties. In this scenario, both White House and Congress are in the hands of the Democrats, meaning zero obstacle to Obama's radical Constitution-trashing appointments.

You said God is "pro-choice." Do you believe God is okay with killing innocent human life? You seem to make the claim to be a Christian, but I have no idea how you can assert that God is okay with killing the most innocent of human life. God has indeed given us free will to choose good or evil, life or death, but I cannot fathom how you seem to believe God is indifferent to that choice. Why else would he point us so strongly to the good and life, and warn us so strongly against the evil and the death? And why would he warn us about the eternal judgment and punishment for making bad choices?

You also said, "
no human being is going to change consequences of the sinful state of another human being." If that is the case, then there is no reason to do as God commanded us and tell others about the truth. We might as well ignore the Great Commission to go and make disciples of Christ, as well.

Christ said we would know those who are genuine by their fruits. Oh, we can all perform pious acts to impress people, but do we bear the fruits of the Spirit and of obedience to God?

Barack Obama is perfectly fine with killing unborn (and some born) children. Obama is fine with homosexual behavior, which God repeatedly condemns in both Old and New Testaments. Obama is fine with theft of personal property as long as government is the thief. He coddles evil internationally and here at home. He has contempt for sincere Christians.

Those are not the fruits of a Christ-follower. Those are the fruits of one who is promoting a trip to Hell.

Your pathetic excuse for "Christian living"is perhaps why our nation is in such disarray and moral bankruptcy. It is high on feeling good and empty of obedience. It is shallow and uncommitted. It runs from making a difference in a dark and fallen world. In short, it is the "salt which has lost it's savor," which, as Christ said, is worth nothing except to be trampled underfoot.


VIATOR:

You obviously don't a clue what "Christian" and "un-Christian" are. It is unChristian to fail to warn people about danger. It is unChristian to fail to warn people about going down an immoral and destructive path. It is unChristian to stick your head in the sand and pretend sin and evil aren't happening, won't happen, or aren't harmful.

Someday, if you eventually find the truth, you'll thank God that Dr. James Dobson had the commitment to found an organization so dedicated to bringing truth and light in such a dark world. If you don't find that truth, you may look back on this as a missed opportunity that you will weep over for eternity.

TEMET NOSCE:

It is true that George W. Bush and John McCain are far from perfect, have had their failures and make mistakes. I am far from pleased with either of them.

However, for the most part, both are at least committed to the safety and welfare of our nation, both from external threats and from internal moral corruption.

Barack Obama, on the other hand, though his own statements, his own stated plans for this country, and through the people he associates with, clearly despises the Christian foundation and heritage of our nation. He also despises the capitalistic economic system which, while not perfect, has brought our nation more prosperity than ever seen in human history. Obama is willing and ready to coddle evil around the world and embraces it here at home through the promotion of killing unborn (and some born) children, and the promotion of an immoral, unnatural and unhealthy sexual practice (homosexuality), and an attack on marriage and family by making a place for the concept of homosexual "marriage."

Your forth and fifth paragraphs indicate a profoundly shallow understanding of Christianity (at best). You seem to appreciate the good news of the Bible (that Christ can save us) without even acknowledging the bad news (that we are all sinners and must do things God's way in order to be saved, and that evil must be resisted).

I seriously encourage you to read this letter again, then pull out your Bible and read it along with some serious prayer and meditation. You've missed 95% of what God is trying to tell you, and it's not only your loss, but to the loss of everyone you promote this twisted thinking to.

Your head-in-the-sand philosophy and theology are what don't pass the "smell test." In fact, they reek of sulphur from the pit of hell, and reek of the rot of advanced moral decay.

I welcome anyone's prayers, but you are in desperate need to have this "strong delusion" removed and your blinders to come off. Friend, you are dancing close to the edge of a cliff and don't even know it. I've already said a prayer for your spiritual vision, and will continue to pray for you.

Finally...

DOMINICK:

You, sir, are one of the false prophets of whom you speak. The danger from Barack Obama's radical, unGodly plan is clear. When you attempt to lull someone into not seeing that danger, you are attempting to lead them into harm's way. In this case, you are also attempting to lead our country into harm's way. Go back and read this letter again; you will find all these claims footnoted to current events and quotes which show their very real foundation.

The signs are as clear as those a doctor might note in making a diagnosis for cancer or kidney failure. Of course, we can ignore these signs, just as we might say the doctor is wrong--that it's just "heartburn" or "that chili dog I ate"--but you'll be sorry when the cancer or kidney damage is inoperable. If Barack Obama gets a chance at doing the things he has clearly told us he wants to do (as this letter clearly documents), the damage to America may be inoperable.

If you would like to stop being a false prophet who blinds people to the path of destruction, do this for your own sake and for the sake of other Americans. Also, open your eyes not only to God's love, but God's call to righteousness, his call to obedience...and his warning of eternal judgment if the other calls are ignored.

God is a God of love, but he is equally a God of justice. We should all tremble at that thought (Thomas Jefferson did).

Colin said...

Bob,

Have you studied the Constitution? Do you have a JD?

Bob Ellis said...

I have indeed studied the Constitution. I do not have a JD.

Colin said...

Good, then. This letter misstates a great deal and is fueled by passionate rhetoric more than a real understanding of the law.

Here's the deal. Ginsburg and Stevens are definitely lined up to go, and they're some of the most liberal judges the court has seen in some time. Yes, Stevens has mellowed with age, but...

The point is this: Obama will replace these two judges, if elected. Thomas, Alito, and Roberts aren't going anywhere, and SOUTER is the next most likely to go. So, Obama replaces a THIRD liberal on the court, and the balance remains the same.

So, now we're concerned with only Scalia, Kennedy, and Breyer, who are conservative, moderate, and liberal, respectively.

So, for any of the fears in this letter to be realized, both Scalia AND Kennedy would have to leave the Court, and since Kennedy is socially liberal in many ways (including extending addl rights to gays), Kennedy leaving doesn't really bring this doomsday scenario in the letter.

Thus, Scalia must retire by choice, fall extremely ill, or die during an Obama administration for any of the concerns in this letter to be an issue. I'd guess Scalia would hold on for dear life (like Stevens has) to make it through an Obama admin. And even if not, the letter shows a poor understanding of the issues in the key cases the Court would examine.

So, yes, who the next President is could affect the Court in a huge way, but it's REALLY unlikely that a Democratic admin would cause a paradigm shift. A Republican admin, given those lined up to roll out, would cause a hard shift to the right, though.

Bob Ellis said...

Obviously you didn't read the letter, Colin; it doesn't take a JD to do that.

As it stated, Kennedy retired (he is currently 72, so it is far from impossible). And in an Obama administration with a Democrat congress, he would undoubtedly be replaced by a very liberal judge.

Even if Kennedy stayed, calling him a "moderate" is generous. He has proven himself far more liberal than constitutional.

This letter misstates nothing, and as the footnotes indicate, is based on highly possible-to-likely elements.

We would be incredibly foolish to gamble on any element in here, much less a majority of them coming true--which they certainly would.

Colin said...

I laid out what the vast majority of folks thinks will happen to the makeup of the Court in the next few years.

"This letter misstates nothing, and as the footnotes indicate, is based on highly possible-to-likely elements."

Come on, man. What am I, a fool? I can cite toe-to-toe with the drafter of this letter, but it's not worth it. You've bought it--hook, line and sinker. That's my concern.

I'm a raging liberal, but I back up my arguments with real logic. The conservatives have some real concerns if the Court were to shift, but not the type of concerns stated in the letter, which seem really fishy.

I'm much more of Humanist, and all signs point to Obama driving more discourse, less division, more opportunity... I simply don't understand how Christians want to vote for policies that exclude--that are more likely to leave folks without food, without education, without jobs, and without rights. But that's me, and I can see how others would see it differently.

Why don't we have a debate about issues and policies? Why don't we look at how different proposals will impact the world we live in? Why must we bang heads blindly as ideologues in this country?

I don't, for example, work to convince anyone that being gay is not a choice, for example. Starting there gets me nowhere. Why don't we start, for example, with the basic premise that no person deserves more or less opportunity OR more or fewer rights than any other? Wouldn't you, as a Christian, agree with that?

For example, I could have started this with the following:

"I would thank God (if I believed in him), because John McCain's gonna lose, and we have a shot then at further marginalizing folks who believe in vast conspiracies like this nonsense."

Where does that get me!? Nowhere. Why don't we sit down with each other, accept that we come to the table with different assumptions, acknowledge each other's and assumptions, and then work together?

Otherwise, we'll remain ships passing in the night.

Bob Ellis said...

Colin, please take a closer look at the Constitution. You will not find a single, solitary justification for government charity or any form of wealth redistribution. In case it escaped you, our Constitution is one of enumerated powers, which simply means that if the Constitution does not specifically authorize it, the government cannot do it. And the constitution does not authorize government charity--that is the responsibility of the private sector. Until FDR ripped the Constitution apart, charity was handled by churches, private charities and individuals. The reasons for this are myriad, but perhaps most importantly because the constitution provides no authority whatsoever for it.

If you don't believe me, perhaps you might consider listening to the Founders:

- A wise and frugal government...shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. – Thomas Jefferson

- Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but only those specifically enumerated. - Thomas Jefferson

- With respect to the two words 'general welfare,' I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators. – James Madison

- I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents. – James Madison

- Charity is no part of the legislative duty of the government. – James Madison

- We have the right, as individuals, to give away as much of our own money as we please in charity; but as members of Congress we have no right so to appropriate a dollar of the public money. — Congressman Davy Crockett


I would suggest you read this and this for more insight.

We simply must return to a position of respect for our Constitution or we will not survive as a nation indefinitely.

We all have the same opportunity and the same rights already. However, Democrats exploit class envy and foster a sense of victimhood for political opportunity--which, incidentally, is right out of the Marxist handbook. More unAmerican garbage.

Real Americans recognize that equal opportunity doesn't mean everyone has the same amount of money and the same kind of toys; it simply means that everyone has the opportunity to study and work hard and go as far as their natural talents will take them. Which they do.

How unutterably sad that you don't understand this and rejoice at what a great country we have, but would rather buy the poison of victimhood and pretend the kind of scenario in this letter isn't likely to happen.

Colin said...

I ask, Bob, what's with the outrageous condescension in your reply?

Please read more about the Constitution than merely what supports YOUR position.

We have a spending clause, a commerce clause, and a necessary and proper clause, and those things allow us to do SOME things. We can argue about how much, but Justices--conservative and liberal in their interpretations--all agree that those clauses exist and they let Congress do SOME things.

No wealth distribution!? Come on, my man. Let's avoid the the loaded language and discuss REALITY. Under McCain, we'd still have a PROGRESSIVE tax scheme. We always have; do you suggest we shouldn't? If that's what you mean, cut the rhetoric, and state your position.

Under McCain, we'd still have EIC, Obama just wants to add additional credits. Is McCain Marxist!? Was Bush!? You're not dealing with a simpleton here, Bob. Come on.

I'm not going to trade snippets from the framers with you. I've read the cases that bear on this issue, have you? If you have, could you NAME them for me?

You imply that I don't respect the Constitution, you state that I foster victimhood, you call my beliefs un-American, you imply that I'm not a real American, and you state that I don't even even have PRIDE in this great nation.

Have I done that to you? I need not read the propaganda you offer, for I have read the Constitution, I have read and studied HUNDREDS of the Supreme's cases, I have read HUNDREDS of journal articles, and I have studied under both liberal and conservative EXPERTS on these matters.

Yet, I don't claim that you've got it so wrong, do I? I don't attack your beliefs, do I? I don't claim you un-Christian, do I? I don't claim you deceptive, do I?

What's with this "poison of victimhood," anyhoo? I mean, where does that get us? Who are you, Ayn Rand!? Sweet Jeebus, Bob.

Do you want to sway folks, Bob, or merely incite anger and frustration?

I have an idea. Find me a case related to the "authorization of government charity" and we'll discuss the merits of the Court's reasoning. Until then, save the rhetoric for the base.

Bob Ellis said...

Colin, you're obviously one of these liberals who can't seen the truth when it's crawling all over your nose. Because you don't want to. Because it's inconvenient to you. Because it interferes with what you want to do.

Which is exactly the liberal position on the Constitution. It's an obstacle to your Marxist ideals, so you either ignore it or find creative ways to explain why it doesn't mean what it says.

The various clauses you mentioned were hyper-energized by FDR and his court of Constitution-bashing thugs in black robes.

Madison, known as the "Father of the Constitution" clearly indicated that the general welfare clause was not intended to be a truck-sized loophole through which to thwart the enumerated powers and make the central government vastly more powerful than the states. By the extension of the same logic, neither does the commerce clause or any other clause; FDR used those as perverted Trojan Horses to take this country in a direction it was never intended to go, and to render a large part of the Constitution obsolete.

I call it like I see it. If you show disrespect for the Constitution, I'll say you're showing disrespect for the Constitution. If your beliefs are in opposition to the American ideals, I'll call them unAmerican.

I have an even better idea. Show me where the Constitution authorizes government charity. Until then, why don't you go back to high school and re-study the Constitution and American history. You apparently missed a lot during those years. That, or you went to one of the kind of schools Obama and his Marxist buddy Bill Ayers would fund.

Colin said...

I'm not sure if this comment got posted, so here it is again:

I invite you to continue call me names,
I invite you to call me stupid,
I invite to degrade my education,
I invite you next to attack the the fact that I'm not a Christian,
I invite you to attack the fact that I don't believe in God,
I invite you to call me a Marxist,
I invite you to attack me as a first generation American who clearly hasn't assimilated,
I invite you to attack me because I think Ayn Rand had it all wrong,
I invite you to claim that because I'm trained as an attorney I'm slimy or deceptive, and
I invite you to hate me simply because I'm who I am and I believe what I believe.

We all know that James Madison was called the "Father," but he didn't draft the Constitution himself, nor did he consistently claim the GWC synonymous with the enumerated powers alone.

Again, I offer you the opportunity to analyze Butler, Davis, Dole, or any other case you'd like.

I mean--
James Madison said no
James Madison said no
James Madison said no
James Madison said no
James Madison said no
James Madison said no
James Madison said no
James Madison said no
James Madison said no
James Madison said no

...simply doesn't make you right, Bob.

God, it feels nice to be right, Bob. I still await your reply to any of the questions or issues I raised. Until then, continue to divide and conquer, my friend. It'd be my guess that you'll be greeted with a hearty "You're not invited!" when the rapture comes if you keep this up and don't deal with all this hate in your heart.

You just spew hate and anger--call me stupid, call me un-American, because you "call 'em like you see 'em." It's SO disheartening. You know why? Because there are REAL bases for your position on the Constitution in our jurisprudence, but you'd rather call me stupid, and ATTEMPT to volley the ball back in my court.

You claimed the Constitution doesn't authorize any form of government spending like that of FDR and you claimed the Constitution doesn't allow progressive tax schemes. Not me. It's still in your court.

Keep Smilin', Kiddo. I still love ya.

Bob Ellis said...

I don't know how much more simple and obvious I can make this, Colin, and I'm growing tired of trying.

The Constitution is based on enumerated powers. Once again, that means if it does not specifically authorize an action, it is illegal which means it cannot legally be done.

It is therefore incumbent upon you to prove justification for an action, not for me to prove something is NOT justified. In case it isn't obvious by this point, let me provide an equation:

Not authorized by Constitution=not legal to be done

It's really pretty simple...unless your intent is to do whatever you want and disregard the Constitution. Which I think you've made pretty apparent that it is.

Colin said...

That's right, Bob.

Enumerated powers!
James Madison said no!

At least you didn't call me any more names.

Have a good night, man.

 
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