The inmates are literally running the asylum in New York juvenile detention facilities.
CNS News reports
Transgender youth in New York's juvenile detention centers are now allowed to wear whatever uniform they choose, be called by whatever name they want and ask for special housing under a new anti-discrimination policy drawing praise from advocacy groups.
Government officials, grownups and other mature people are supposed to hold the line on standards, responsibility and reality. There should be some authority figures that can be relied on to help confused, messed-up kids, rather than indulge their delusions.
Apparently that is no longer the case in New York's juvenile system.
For too long our society has been plagued by grownups who don't want to be grownups, people who don't want status but not responsibility, who cave to every whim in the hopes that people will like them. Too few people in authority have the courage to act like adults, and we wonder why all our children act like spoiled brats.
On detention facility policy in New York:
While all residents may ask to be called by a preferred first name rather than their legal one, the policy says males who believe they are female must be called "she" and females who believe they are male must be referred to as "he." Staff must use the preferred name and pronoun in any documents they file.
Doesn't matter what reality is. Doesn't matter what their name really is. Doesn't matter what's between their legs or in their chromosomes. Officials should indulge the fantasy of the inmates.
I wonder: if someone claimed they thought they were a French conqueror, would they call him Napoleon?
And if they claimed they were a staff member and free to leave the detention facility as they pleased, why not indulge that fantasy, too?
81 comments:
'Scuse me while I pick my chin up off the floor!
Freaking pervert, get your mind out from between our legs.
That's just it, Rachel: these mixed-up kids are obsessed with what's between their legs (or what's not between their legs) and since the NY government isn't grownup enough to tell them to go pound sand, everybody ends up worrying about what's between their legs (or not between their legs).
I would be quite interested in knowing what New York law is regarding several matters here. Does NY allow individuals to "officially" change gender upon a whim or does it require a court order? Should it be the latter, then by what authority would the juvenile detention facilities have to by-pass necessary court orders? Should it require a court order that was not issued, then state run facilities would be knowingly falsifying official records/documents each time entries were made identifying an individual by a gender other than the official one on the birth certificate, would they not?
Bob does anyone ever question you being a complete douche bag? Because after reading that I feel as if I have indulged your fantasy of wanting people to think that you are a douche bag.
Obviously these children have felt this way prior to the "NY government not being grownup enough to tell them to go pound sand."
Transgender people feel the same way about their gender as many religious people feel about their faith. They just know deep down inside what is right. No quit thinking you are with out sin and put down the stone.
I debated about allowing your comment, Evin's Blog, because the "douche bag" comment pushes my language standards at Dakota Voice. But I decided to go ahead and allow it to post because I wanted to answer your other statements.
You'll get no disagreement from me that these mixed-up kids obviously felt this way before encountering the impotent NY government officials. My point was that these officials should have had the courage, the maturity, or whatever it may take in order to require these kids to deal with reality.
I'll say it again: they need to DEAL WITH REALITY. When a boy acts like a girl, he's indulging in fantasy. A bit of daydreaming may be harmless, but when you have a penis between your legs and you're calling yourself a girl and by a girl's name, you've reached a very unhealthy disconnection with reality.
If these NY officials had any genuine concern for the well-being of these mixed-up kids, they'd refuse to indulge in these fantasies, call them by their given male names and treat them as the males they are. Obviously too many people in their lives have already failed to do that.
Religious faith is a matter of opinion, in that it's something we work out in our minds and adopt, because despite the best evidence, God remains unseen. The sex organs you have between your legs is a matter of REALITY, it is seen and felt and used.
I'm curious what your response might be to the two questions I asked at the end of the post: If they thought they were a French conqueror, should the detention facility staff call them Napoleon? Or if these kids said they thought they were staff members and should have the right to leave the facility at the end of the day, should the "real" staff indulge that fantasy, too? If not, why not?
Bob, I'm afraid that some people may not be able to grasp the legitimacy of the questions you posed. Asking why the staff would indulge one form of fantasy, but not all, is a legit question.
I, too, look forward to their response.
Until you've lived it or known someone who has, I wouldn't expect anyone to understand why we do what we do.
The point of prison systems is not to send people there to be punished, being there IS the punishment. I'll just ignore the red herrings towards the end of your article and say that they're following medically approved procedures defined by the Diagnostics and Statistics Manual. If you don't like it, I'll gladly help you get us removed from the DSM! You wouldn't be threatened with having to use your tax dollars to pay for our hormones and surgeries, and I wouldn't be classified as mentally ill and we'd be able to get said surgery without jumping through hoops. It's win freaking win! :)
Rachel, you make it sound as if dealing with reality is punishment. I admit reality can be difficult sometimes, but to consider it punishment?
I'd be curious how you'd answer the questions at the end of the post, Rachel: if someone in detention said they were Napoleon Bonaparte, should detention facility staff call them by name and treat them like a French dictator? Or if the inmate says they believe they're a staff member, should the other "real" detention facility staff allow them to punch their imaginary time card at the end of the day and leave the facility? If not, why not?
Rachel, I know someone who was a cross-dresser. He raped his ten year-old stepdaughter. (Raped - not molested.) Does that count for knowing someone who partakes in cross-dressing?
Bob: The people referenced in your quoted article are following medical procedures defined in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. The people in your examples should probably follow the procedures defined by whatever mental disorder they have as well.
Carrie: Cum hoc ergo propter hoc much?
Rachel: if someone in detention said they were Napoleon Bonaparte, should detention facility staff call them by name and treat them like a French dictator? Or if the inmate says they believe they're a staff member, should the other "real" detention facility staff allow them to punch their imaginary time card at the end of the day and leave the facility? If not, why not?
I don't know why you continue to try and distract from the issue with red herring arguments, or why you're ignoring my reply that they should follow the diagnosis for whatever mental disorder is causing them to believe that.
Rachel, less than you trying to avoid legit questions.
Red herring, Rachel? That's at the heart of the issue.
Don't tell me "whatever some politically correct manual says;" tell me what common sense and reason tells you:
If someone in detention said they were Napoleon Bonaparte, should detention facility staff call them by name and treat them like a French dictator? Or if the inmate says they believe they're a staff member, should the other "real" detention facility staff allow them to punch their imaginary time card at the end of the day and leave the facility? If not, why not?
Rachel, so you are saying that it is a mental disorder and the detention centers are to treat their disorder by encouraging their fantasy or wishful thinking?
Oooookay...
Sure, let's throw medically approved diagnostic and treatment procedures out the window because we don't approve of them or think they're real.
Wow. Just wow.
Rachel, I think you and I both know that the clinical status of sexual disorders have been modified and even completely thrown out of the manual as pressure from homosexual activists have come onto the APA. The psychological community compromised their credibility a long time ago; they're more of those who indulge people in their fantasies.
But I'm still curious how you'd answer those questions using common sense and reason:
If someone in detention said they were Napoleon Bonaparte, should detention facility staff call them by name and treat them like a French dictator? Or if the inmate says they believe they're a staff member, should the other "real" detention facility staff allow them to punch their imaginary time card at the end of the day and leave the facility? If not, why not?
You're avoiding the questions, Rachel.
As a transgendered person I took offence to your stated opinion - but what the heck, you validate my choice to become female Bob.
Get a clue, Ellis! Being trans is not about a fantasy or a choice. It's about one's core identity, and a bona fide medical condition with an appropriate treatment. Take me, for example. I transitioned in the Canadian military four years ago. Do you honestly think the CF would have paid for my entire transition, including SRS, had it been a fantasy or a choice? They see the value in properly treating, and therefore retaining, a fully qualified technician, instead of dumping her out on her ear and spending much more to train some new kid off the street. I don't know what research you did on this before you made such an idiotic post, but I have a feeling that you did none whatsoever. Maybe it's time you did.
I'm aware, RadarGrrl, that the Canadian military has for some time been indulging some people's sex fantasies. Like the New York juvenile system, they've cast aside common sense, reason, maturity, and perhaps most of all REALITY in order to make people "feel better."
The reality of your sex is what you were born with in your genetic makeup and what you have between your legs. It's sad that somewhere along the way you became confused about that, but far sadder still that people in authority chose to go along with your delusion--at your expense.
Well, I don't get it. One argument presented is that it is a "mental disorder" and another that it is a "medical condition", so it is which?
To address one point that is very relevant..
"If a juvenile has been remanded to a juvenile detention center -- a crime has occurred. One important aspect of "REHABILITATION" is accepting responsibility and being held accountable for inappropriate behavior."
I'm really confused as to what type of detention centers are encouraging our youth to act out being the opposite sex. In for-real ones where juveniles are sent there for committing crimes -- this type of encouragement would be inviting the juvenile inmate to be attacked -- not accepted.
Bob: Yeah, I get it. You don't think our condition is real, that we're just delusional and living in a fantasy world. So, you're trying to get me to say "tell them to stfu", so that you can respond "same applies to these people: tell them to stfu". So, with that completely irrelevant back and forth out of the way, let me continue to the next question in this progression. If the two people in your example were given psychiatric evaluations and diagnosed as schizophrenics (by the same "politically correct manual" that GID is in), would you ignore treatment protocol and continue telling them to stfu? Regardless of your personal feelings towards the psychiatric community and the APA, GID is a legitimate diagnosis in the DSM with medically accepted treatment procedures. None of which includes telling them to "get over it". Just because you can't tell the difference between someone pretending to be Napoleon and someone with GID, doesn't make our condition any less legitimate.
I honestly have to wonder why you care so much about what other people do with their lives. Oh no, someone wants to dress in certain clothing and be addressed by a certain name! Such a burden. Would you show such disrespect to someone preferring to be called Doctor?
"The reality of your sex is what you were born with in your genetic makeup and what you have between your legs. It's sad that somewhere along the way you became confused about that, but far sadder still that people in authority chose to go along with your delusion--at your expense."
I see. Intersex people and Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome don't exist. Gotcha. (Look that last one up! Females born with XY chromosomes, the horror!)
Hi, I don't usually jump into conversations like this. I usually find it beneath me to indulge in internet flame wars. I prefer to "deal with reality" not whine about it however google brought this article to my attention..
As a "transsexual woman" (quoted because its a label from a politically correct diagnostic manual). I prefer to just see myself as a human being that happens to have been born transsexual. Call it what you like, I'm secure in knowing that if it weren't for courageous and open minded doctors, nurses, scientists and other highly educated individuals I wouldn't be the successful and happy member of society I am today.
Without getting too specific, I've known from a young age that at one level or another I was different. Society doesn't like nor prepare you to be different than the majority. Being a young child I couldn't do anything but go off of the reality that is I could touch, see, feel, smell. All the while, I felt a pain inside growing without even knowing exactly what it was.
Adolescence was mostly experimentation with clothes, not sex. It was a very very fearful time for me. I took great pains to hide my experimentation, I was dependent on my parents and and their idea that I was their "normal" child. I quote normal because it is a label that is overused and commonly misconstrued that anything outside of the readers definition of normal must be therefore abnormal and usually in a forum like this considered wrong or deficient by some measure. Back to my story. I still did not fully understand why I had these urges to fantasize I just knew that relieved some stress. Puberty ended that, reality set in, I knew what I looked like in a mirror clothed and not and I had seen episodes of Jerry Springer and I was scared.
Fast forward to my early 20s, Successful go-getter with a knack for computers and very left brained I was a hit in the corporate office. I made my way into a nice position with a company and I could have never been more miserable. reality set in again and I realized that this depression and internal pain was too large for me to deal with on my own. I needed to seek out help if I wanted to live. Still scared that I'd lose everything I worked so hard for I talked only about my symptoms, depression and suicidal thoughts. Eventually after having tried nearly all credited methods of curing my depression I began to realize just how serious my situation was. I would surely lose everything if I killed myself. I confided in my therapist and for the first time in my life I felt like I wasn't doomed.
Fast forward again to me now. I have gone through my transition and I have gained so much more than I could have ever imagined. I'm a successful, my family is closer than ever, and most importantly I'm happy.
Carrie would be happy to know I have never raped anyone nor have I ever personally known any rapists. I can also assure her that there is a complicated and monitored process for transition. Bob if I might be so blunt, worry less about treatment methods for medical conditions you do not understand. The sun will rise and set the same way it did yesterday regardless of NY cities new policy is, You will not be effected. I'm sure these teens didn't want to be in this kind of facility. As for your Napoleon argument. Thats schizophrenia and thats much more serious and not related to transgenderism in anyway.
New York I applaud your ability to look beyond closed minded and tired arguments that your body must define who you are, and update your reality to include new ideas, thoughts and most of all compassion for those that need it.
Rachel, I knew you understood reality, and might even grudgingly admit it if you were led there enough. I also knew you'd still look for an exit door under the "yeah, but that doesn't apply here" argument.
In each of these situations (the male who thinks he's a female, the person who thinks they're Napoleon, and the person who thinks they're a staff member when they're an inmate)--they're all denying reality. The only difference is those in authority have chosen to indulge one of the three fantasies.
I was also reasonably sure you'd eventually come up with and trot out the Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome. It's a common "let the exception become the rule" defense in issues like this. Any bets this isn't at issue in the NY juvenile facilities?
Sara (I'm sure that's not your name), I'm sorry that you've suffered so much. I'm also sorry that someone didn't get you the help you needed at an earlier age where you might have been able to deal with who God created you to be.
God created males to act like males and females to act like females. The set of sex organs you get at birth determines which one you are. But like all things with human beings, things can happen to us that distort our perception of who we are and of reality. And we also have free will to be able to fight both reality, and to fight the distortions that affect us.
I am concerned about what NY is doing for several reasons. One, I respect God, and we're supposed to honor how he created us. Two, I care about other human beings. And indulging these fantasies does the individual no good, but rather leads them further down a path of unreality and delusion. Three, what larger government systems do usually spills over to the rest of the country--if this continues, it's only a matter of time until it's adopted in my area. At that time it will be affecting me as a taxpayer, and affecting the people in my community who are being enabled to remain in a fantasy world rather than helped to adjust to reality.
We all realize it's not healthy and it's not right to indulge the guy who thinks he's Napoleon. Why is it suddenly different because the delusion is sexual in nature?
Bob, when you say "God created males to act like males and females to act like females" you validate the entire - I for example was born female, so I had best follow God's word and act like a female which would include using a Female name and female pronouns. Bear in mind that we're talking gender, which is a classification of the sex of a person roughly corresponding to masculine, feminine, ambivalent or neuter.
I'm supposing that either your god can make mistakes or intentionally messes up the design as a test. Think of cleft palate, heart valve defects, conjoined twins. Do these define us? Should people be made to live with these problems?
In my case, your god put a penis on a girl at birth, a penis in no way defines who I am, how I think or my gender - it's just a spigot for urine and a defect just like webbed fingers. It's correctable with understanding, compassion and medical intervention.
Carly, we're talking sex, as in sexual organs, as in whether you're a male or a female.
God doesn't make mistakes. He created males to act like males and females to act like females.
The birth defects you mentioned are physical abnormalities that sometimes occur because we live in a fallen world--one where the choice of two human beings to do things their way instead of God's way brought this curse of sin and suffering on us all.
But again let me emphasize: these are birth defects, physical abnormalities.
If a person is born with a penis, they're a male. If a person is born with a vagina, they're a female. It's called reality, and people would do better to just deal with it, rather than expect government, society and God to bend to their way of thinking.
That whole "doing things our way instead of God's way" thing I mentioned above? That's what put the world in the mess it's in; we don't need still more of it going on.
"The birth defects you mentioned are physical abnormalities that sometimes occur because we live in a fallen world--one where the choice of two human beings to do things their way instead of God's way brought this curse of sin and suffering on us all."
And I was wondering when you'd revert to your Deus Ex Machina. And we're the ones denying reality? Have a nice weekend Napoleon. :)
Dear Mr. Ellis,
If the ignorance displayed in your column "NY Juvenile Detention Facilities Cater to Transgender
It is real. Its not a fantasy but an internal sense of being "wrong". Its not who our friends are, who we find sexually attractive, what work we do or where we live. Its a constant.
In the case of the youth incarcerated in NYC can you imagine what would happen if effeminate young people, often with breasts (from estrogen) were put in a male prison? The lock-up is not supposed to be a pleasant situation but being raped and brutalized by other prisoners is not a punishment prescribed by any state's laws.
I'll close this with a couple of questions. What on earth do you have against someone else being happy in their own skin? When a person lives in a way that makes them feel "right" after decades of living with the "wrongness", and it doesn't affect others directly, what's it to you? You are saying in effect that someone else should be miserable just because you are uncomfortable with them. That's a pretty selfish argument on your part, isn't it?
PattyM
Can you see gravity, Rachel? Can you see the wind? Can you see love? Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it isn't real.
But sex organs: you can see them, and it isn't too hard to figure out which set you have and what that means.
PattyM: did these males choose to take estrogen, or does it naturally occur in their bodies? If it naturally occurs, they're probably girls. If they have to take it to have/maintain breasts, they're probably mixed-up boys.
Hopefully the juvenile system will protect these sad young people from further harm. But they may make that difficult if they pretend to be something they aren't.
Patty, I have nothing against someone being happy in their own skin. In fact, I wonder why these people can't be happy in their own skin? If they have a penis, God made them to be a male; if they have a vagina, God made them to be a female. Instead of fighting reality, they should work with it.
What a tremendous insult that must be to God, who created them to be one way and fulfill a certain role, for them to say, "You don't know what you're doing, God. You messed up. I know better than you do."
Good 'ol fundie Bob Ellis. Spouting the regurgitated doctrine of penis/vagina 'reality'. All you can offer is the standard 'God made male and female' line. Who are you to say what God intends or not? Do you honestly think that God is concerned with every penis/vagina in the world? Only people like you seem to be fixated on them. I think He is much more concerned with the happiness and well-being of his children. In fact, its a tremendous insult to God to live a miserable, depressed life which is what most of us do at some point prior to transition. Those of us who travel the transexual journey come out the other side much more content, peaceful, well-adjusted, and productive than we ever could have been in our 'expected' natal gender. And of course it IS about gender, not sex. Again, its people like you who are hung up on that topic.
Sara (my real Name Honey) ...
Sara (if that's your real name--if you were born with a penis, I doubt it is), it's as amazing as it is sad that you can actually see something in front of you (a penis or a vagina) and go, "No, that's not right" or "No, that's not reality." Someone has truly sold you a gold-plated lie.
If you read the Bible, you'll find that God is very concerned with how we live our lives and how we use or misuse the gift of sexuality he's given us. He is indeed very concerned with our happiness; it's why he gave us rules for how to live our lives and how to live those lives within the sex roles and sexual boundaries he created for us.
I think you'll find that any measure of peace you've found in being accommodated in your delusion will be transitory. We can only find true peace when we're in God's will, and if you're altering your body to be something that is clearly not what God intended for it to be, there's a tough road of heartache ahead--especially when you reach the eternal. I hope you find your way back to the truth before it's too late.
Its pretty interesting that you consider god to be real and the thoughts and feelings of physically real human beings (Humans you can see feel and touch) to be fantasy.
I think you might have it backwards, god is a fantasy and your feelings about people you don't understand is your inability to cope with reality..
And yes Sara is my real name, its on my birth certificate, as is the F indicating female. Thankfully California let me change it from what they used to be after I got my Sex Reassignment Surgery.
Deal with that reality and stop trying to force your narrow concepts of what humanity is on others.
That's what I've been suggesting you and many others who've commented here do: deal with reality. I realize that you may have been through some difficult things in your formative years, but that's the entire point of this article: the authorities in the NY juvenile system aren't doing these kids any favors by indulging in their delusions instead of getting them some help dealing with their sex.
It would be funny if it weren't so sad that on one hand you don't believe God is real, and on the other you can (or could) clearly see the reality of your sex between your legs--yet rejected that most obvious of realities. Could it be that the only thing that is "real" to you is what you want to be real? That's a profoundly unhealthy way to live.
I really hope and pray you can get to the point that you can let go of this strong delusion you've been sold and find the truth, because the truth will definitely set you free.
I feel so sad for you Bob ... do you believe that God is such a simple God that something as complicated as sex and gender is dependent on an organ system between our legs? You are the one fixated on the word sex ... we aren't. You must be one repressed individual, even with your 8 or 9 children. Do us a favor, take care of your children, live your little life. Go to your church and I'll go to mine. I am quite sure I have earned the right (as has the other Sara and the other writers that have repsonded here to your ridiculous post) to self-determine without your self-righteous intrusion into our lives. I am happy, content, and I know God is well-pleased with his daughter. Please don't hope and pray for me ... I want nothing you have to give.
God is far more intelligent, powerful and complex than you or I will ever understand or appreciate.
He did make a few things relatively simple for us limited human beings, however, and one of them is determined by the same way a doctor does when he pulls the baby out of the mother (the female mother) and says "You have a baby boy" or "You have a baby girl." It's really pretty simple.
It's only when human beings get messed up from bad things that happen to them, or they choose to make things complicated because they want things they just were never supposed to have, that things get all out of kilter.
You haven't earned the right to alter your body and act in ways contrary to how you were created. You may be getting away with it now, but sooner or later it'll catch up with you. I hope you make peace with God before the bill arrives.
Hey Ellis!
I hope you never need a heart transplant. Wouldn't that be against your fun loving imaginary superfriend's will too? Do you eat shrimp or lobster? That's an abomination. You should be stoned to death. Maybe worn cotton and wool together? More stones. Amazing how all these things get picked and chosen, eh? How about 'Judge not, lest ye be judged'? Hypocrite.
I was inquiring some posts back if the facility in question is a detention center for juveniles that break the law or a mental facility for juveniles with gender confusion. (Not that I worded the latter as I have now.)
I wondered how a state run "detention center" could knowingly make entries in official documents/reports that was contrary to birth records, unless a court ordered such to be so. Wouldn't that be falsifying official documents and records? (The latter being a crime within itself.)
I felt it would be dangerous and setting the juvenile up for attack, by allowing them to act out as a gender other than what they are officially.
Then, someone asked Bob if he could imagine the female types being locked up in a male prison. Wasn't that part of the original question? Why would they be encouraging what could get these juveniles hurt or killed?
Let's step back to the original conversation...
Is this a "DETENTION" center for juveniles that have been convicted of a crime? If is it a "detention center" and for a specific gender, why wouldn't it be expected that all inmates are of that gender? Either they are or they aren't. And if they are officially of the gender of the facility, what good does it do for staff to allow them to act out as an opposing gender or treat them as though they are? Wouldn't "that" actually be inviting the attacks and rapes?
Wouldn't it be inviting escape from reality and looking for excuses that just might not be deserving?
What favor would we be affording our children if the above is the fate we allowed to simply be, because we thought it politically correct and the new age thought?
God is far more intelligent, powerful and complex than you or I will ever understand or appreciate. - Bob
You won't win an argument against a guy with God on his side. He needs him to make up for his own lack of insight. That's why clever people invented God: to give these people hope and at the same time have some means to control them.
Leave Bob alone. The time to give him grief is when he's actually in a position to do us transgenders some real harm.
RadarGrrl, you should learn something about the Bible you so casually misquote and take out of context. It would really help your life.
If you did, you would know that the things you mentioned were part of the ritual and dietary restrictions the Old Testament Jews lived under, and that Jesus Christ did away with those.
You would also know that the moral code of right and wrong is still 100% intact, including homosexual behavior and behavior which blurs the lines between the sexes.
You'd also know that only an idiot or someone hopefully naive cannot and does not judge whether behavior is right or wrong, and that this verse about not judging means we are not to judge others from an attitude that we are above sin (I'm definitely not).
Please, read this book that you mock so easily, and you'll find that it can change your life and your heart--profoundly and forever.
Yeah, you're right. You can't argue with a guy who's head is so firmy buried in the sand.
Note to Bob: I'm not christian, so I'm not responsible to your nasty little book or your narrow minded interpretations of it. I answer to a much higher moral code, that which resides within myself, and it's far more moral than yours, apparently, because I don't go around preaching hatred as you do.
Judging me without even knowing me, based on a MEDICAL CONDITION! Real smart, Bob! Go have some shrimp now.
That's your whole problem, RadarGrrl: you think that you're the smartest person in the universe. You think your own moral center is the height of truth.
I realized early in this conversation that you aren't a Christian, but that doesn't mean you're not responsible to what you consider to be a "nasty little book." People often don't think they're responsible to the law, including speed laws, and they often think there isn't even a cop around watching them. But when they see the flashing lights in the rear view mirror, they suddenly get a date with reality: they are subject whether they like it or not, and whether they knew authority was watching or not.
It isn't hatred to try and tell a person when they're going wrong and heading down a dangerous road; you'd consider it the height of negligence if a person knew a bridge was out just over a hill that a person was speeding toward, and that person did nothing to warn drivers of the danger.
If you were born with a penis, you're a boy. If you insist on denying this reality, and the reality of the moral authority you deny, the consequences of your remaining life, and your eternal destiny of your soul, are entirely on your head. Unlike these idiots in New York, I at least cared enough about your welfare to warn you.
In the first place, your little book is not law, as much as you seem to want to think it is. You have the gall to query my on reality? A huge difference: my own moral code applies ONLY TO ME! I do not go around trying to enforce my way of thinking on others.
In the second place, dealing with a medical condition successfully is hardly going down a 'dangerous road'
In the third place, I was born with a female brain. Never mind the birth defect you so blithely term as a 'penis'. I'm a girl. I just arrived on the planet with instructions saying some assembly required.
My medical condition was properly and appropriately treated, and has one of the highest success rates in medicine. I have no idea what your alternatives to transition might be, but I can tell you that so-called 'reparative therapy', especially when it involves religion, has driven more trans people to suicide than the snake oil salesmen who practice it will ever admit. You, on the other hand, could use some reparative therapy yourself, to rid your mind of these hallucinating shepherd stories.
What makes your "female brain" different than a "male brain" or any other brain? What physical characteristics are different about it from any other male child?
You're mostly correct that your moral code only applies to you...however, you obviously expect the rest of us to abide by your moral code, otherwise you wouldn't be demanding the allowance and approval of others.
But while your moral code may only (for the most part) apply only to you, there is a transcendent moral truth that applies to all human beings at all times. Just like the speeding laws, you don't have to like them, you don't even have to acknowledge them, but if you break it, it'll catch up with you sooner or later. I'd rather see you avoid that day.
Bob,
If a man has his penis removed because of penile cancer, is he still a man?
If a baby is born with undescended testicles and an enlarged clitoris/malformed labia, is it a boy or a girl?
If a woman was born without ovaries, is she still a woman?
Learn to look beyond physical characteristics.
Many of you guys have immense difficulty with complexity, so I tried to keep it as simple as possible for you. Of course, simplicity is too complex for you; you must struggle to find any possible exception to justify your complete rejection of reality.
In each of the cases you cited, Anonymous, if you checked the genetic information of these individuals you'd find that they are, respectively, a male, a male, a female, and a female.
You should really learn to deal with reality and not try to build a reality based on the slightest exception. It's unhealthy and can lead to a world of hurt when you do end up colliding with reality.
Of course these girls had to take estrogen. Without ovaries they can get it no other way.
To which you will probably reply something about that proving that they are delusional men.
And to which I'll reply that transsexualism is as much a birth defect as any that you can see. If a baby is born with a physical defect, a mal-formed heart valve, perhaps, wouldn't you think that this should be surgically corrected? This really is the same thing.
If you don't think that "god" makes mistakes go talk to my friend who recently had a baby born with spina bifida (spelling?) and which died shortly after birth. But this and your comments about God can only turn this discussion to one on religion. Those invariably generate more heat than light.
Having read through the comments here it does not seem likely that there is anything that anyone can say that will change your mind so I will drop out of the conversation.
Oh, one last thing, I am posting anonymously because over the past two decades I've made a life for myself that is hardly glamorous but is a pleasant way to live. I am just another aging, middle class suburban woman with a committed partner and too many cats. This life is too valuable to jeopardize for the sake of a futile conversation.
All the best to you and yours.
PattyM
Then how do you classify someone with Klinefelter's Syndrome or Jacob's Syndrome (both XXY), Triple X Syndrome, Turner Syndrome (single X), Quad-X or Penta-X? All of these are genetic variations of the XX and XY you seem to cling to. So are they male or female? How about women with Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome, genetically XY, yet phenotypically female? Are you going to tell Jamie Lee Curtis that she's really a guy?
Yes, PattyM, you seen to know most if not all of the answers, just refuse to accept them, so I agree that there's not much point in continuing the conversation.
I wish you the best, as well.
There you go again, RadarGrrl, trying to build a case to make the exception become the rule.
You pin your hopes to justify sexual and institutional chaos on a tiny handful of genetic abnormalities.
And in how many of these cases does the malady make normal sex/gender conformity impractical?
What's more, how many of the subject cases in the NY juvenile detention system fit this description...compared with those who are otherwise perfectly normal physically and genetically but simply want to be something they're not?
But according to you, everybody fits into those neat little packages of XX or XY. When confronted with examples of gender ambiguity, you said:
In each of the cases you cited, Anonymous, if you checked the genetic information of these individuals you'd find that they are, respectively, a male, a male, a female, and a female.
How can you possibly know this without having a look at each case in question? So now, when presented with more gender ambiguity, this time according to your own definition of gender markers, you tell me I'm trying to use exceptions to build the rule. What I'm actually doing is disproving your own hard and fast rule of the XX and XY pigeonholes, showing that gender is a spectrum. Either your XX/XY is hard and fast or it isn't, and I've just shown it to not be the case.
Now, if you're telling me that if male and female are defined by the presence or absence of a penis, then how do you define a man who has lost his equipment in an accident, or a woman who has had a radical hysterectomy? Now go further and tell me how you define someone who is born with genitalia so ambiguous that even the doctors can't tell. Look at the genetics, you say. So the baby turns up AIS or Klinefelters, what then? You see, for every definition of what defines gender that can be come up with, there exist examples that disprove any hard and fast rule. So how do you do it?
You mention sex and gender conformity? I would suggest that, while most intersexed people will try to adapt themselves according to what they feel and what society expects of them, there are those intersexed people that choose to not adhere to either. As a trans person, almost by definition, I subscribe to a gender binary, but only as it applies to myself, according to how I feel. But even here, some trans people choose to ignore the binary pigeonholes. That is their choice.
As for the NY Juvenile Detention system, I haven't a clue how many IS or TS people are inside. How many do there have to be? I didn't realize medical treatment required some sort of threshold. What happens to you if you get incarcerated and some nasty, previously undiagnosed disease pops up on you? Would you like it to go through committee before treatment is started? That's what you're suggesting here.
Bob,
You said that many of us seem to have difficulty with complexity, and that we cling to exceptions to justify our rejection of reality.
You, on the other hand, seem to think that the world really is simple enough to fit inside myopic rules like "penis=boy" and "vagina=girl". Use all the pedestrian analogies you want, and ignore all the exceptions that you can -- the world just isn't as clear-cut as you think it is.
Radargrrl, I am so glad you mentioned Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome. People like Bob, who view the world in black and white, seem painfully and embarrassingly ignorant to this rare condition. And when it's brought to his attention, he accuses us of trying to "build a case to make the exception become the rule."
Well Bob, maybe you just lack the mental capacity to understand that "dealing with reality" does not consist of trying to decide which box people should fit in. This seems to be what you are doing, and I pray for a time when you are faced with a person or situation that fits in multiple boxes -- or better yet, no box at all.
It will be a rude awakening for someone like you. Perhaps you'll learn that the Bible does not contain all of life's answers, and maybe you'll just have to try looking at individuals rather than groups to finally understand that life is not a series of rules or exceptions.
My point, Rachel, is we do not run the world based on exceptions. There will aways be exceptions, but we don't order the universe to allow an open-door for them.
In your universe, because someone might be in an emergency an need to get to the hospital right away, we should have no stop signs or stoplights. Or because someone's brakes might malfunction, we should have no stop signs or stop lights.
I think you and I both know that, based on the extremely small number of cases of genuine genetic abnormality, and even smaller number of cases of serious physical deformity, that the number of such cases in the NY juvenile system is extremely small. Those that do can and should be dealt with on a case-by-case basis...and having worked in law enforcement before, I would venture they probably HAVE been dealt with on a case-by-case basis before.
The current SOP, however, governs every case as if it fit the exception.
I think you're intellectually aware of this, but you're so desperate to justify this kind of inordinate validation that you cling to the slightest shred of a justification.
I don't know about you, but I think we've thoroughly beat this horse into a pulp.
Radargrrl, you said...
"As for the NY Juvenile Detention system, I haven't a clue how many IS or TS people are inside. How many do there have to be? I didn't realize medical treatment required some sort of threshold. What happens to you if you get incarcerated and some nasty, previously undiagnosed disease pops up on you? Would you like it to go through committee before treatment is started? That's what you're suggesting here."
... and I would like to respond! One moment or two please!
There are a ton of people out there that will claim to have done whatever, or be whatever, if it will give them the attention they are craving. It is something that people that truly believe in rehabilitation have to be conscious of and careful to deal with appropriately.
Throughout this conversation, I have questioned whether this juvenile detention center is actually a juvenile detention center for those convicted of crimes. If it is... to encourage males to act as females and so forth, is doing nothing more than setting them up to become victims of the rape and other vicious attacks. It could be setting them up to be tortured and murdered. Is that what you wish for any, Radargrrl?
A name was presented. I don't know that the name actually belongs to the person that wrote, so I removed it.
Here is the comment...
"Carrie, it should illustrate how serious trans people are about thier gender identity when you consider that they are willing to risk in jail "It could be setting them up to be tortured and murdered."
This is exactly what transgendered people face every day of their life - fear of hatred, harm and even death to be who they are. That's how serious it is, how real it is.
The system is flawed, as if a person is truly transgendered they should not be placed with the general male prison population, the belong with the females.
No, this is not about a quick cheap thrill or a chance to get lucky - 3 months on hormone therapy and most males are effectively chemically castrated.
This is about being willing to face fear an deven death while standing up for who you are, just like the jews did in Nazi Germany. Standing up for what you believe in, just like the countless men and women who serve their country in uniform.
My real name is (name removed). I'm a male to female transgendered person. I have been on hormones for 14 months, I have served my country in uniform. I speak from knowledge, experience and with pride and compassion - not of ignorance or fear."
My response is...
If what you have shared is true... you are an adult -- not a juvenile in a juvenile detention center.
Why aren't we discussing whether a juvenile detention is handling the matter appropriately? Wasn't THAT actually the issue presented for discussion?
Sex (male, female) refers to reproductive biology; gender (boy, girl, woman, man) refers to psychology and social role.
It's well established both in the research literature and in the personal experience of millions of people in cultures around the world throughout history that, while most males identify as boys or men and most females identify as girls or women, this isn't always the case.
Transgender people choose their gender identity in the same way that everyone else does, i.e., they just know. If people learned their gender identity based on what other people expected of them because of their biology, then there wouldn't be any transgender people at all.
The DSM lists "Gender Identity Disorder", but I don't think being trans is a disorder any more than it's a disorder to be left handed or red haired. The DSM is a catalog of billing codes for the insurance industry. I don't know any clinicians (and I know quite a few) who take it seriously as a guide to therapeutic practice.
You're entitled to your own opinion, but you're not entitled to your own facts. And if you're not informed on a subject, it's best just to be quiet.
But if you're an expert on the Bible, perhaps you can explain how it is that, according to Genesis, God created man on day five, but on day seven He looked around and saw that there was no one to till the Earth. (God then created man, again, and though the Bible is not specific about this, it must have been day eight, because the Bible is very clear about God taking the day off on day seven).
Regardless of the mental acrobatics that get the Biblical literalists around these obvious contradictions, I refuse to take my moral guidance from a book in which two women (Lot's daughters) get their father drunk and have sex with him in order to continue his "seed" (King James version).
You mentioned reality, here's the reality...more than 50% of transgender children attempt suicide. (What does the Bible say about that?) The American Medical Association, American Pediatric Association, American Psychiatric Association and American Pychological Association have developed and agreed upon a method of treatment with a 98% success rate. How can you argue against that? If you can, your argument is with every one of them...not me, not the other posters.
You also mentioned that the problem is in their heads. Lets assume you are right, the problem becomes, that the AMA, APA & ApA have not been able to fix the head, but they have had amazing results fixing the body.
Since you brought religion into this, show me in the Bible where it says being transsexual is a sin. I can show you this:
1 Samuel 16:7 - But the LORD said to Samuel, "Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The LORD does not look at the things man looks at. Man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."
Luke 6:37 - Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.
Anonymous,
The Bible doesn't say anything about transsexuals, because the Bible was written by men who knew nothing about transsexuals. In other words, the Bible was not written by God. :-)
As Anne Lamott said: "You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do."
KM, I think I've stated enough about transsexualism and gender disorders that it's become a beaten dead horse. When you pretend to be something your body clearly indicates you are not, it's a morality and a sanity issue.
I will however answer your question about the Bible and the creation week. If you're asking what I think you're asking, you're referring to the supposed inconsistency between Genesis chapter 1 and 2.
God actually created human beings on Day 6, not day 5. Chapter 1 closes at the end of Day 6. Chapter 2 begins with the summary statement that "Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array" and then says that God rested on Day 7.
After that opening in Chapter 2, the narrative then backs up a step to take a closer look at the creation of humans which was only briefly mentioned in Chapter 1. It's not a continuation in chronological order, but a step back to focus on something of extreme importance, because of all that God created, only humans were created in his image, with intelligence, an eternal soul, and the ability to make moral choices.
This writing technique is commonly found in both novels and non-fiction books when a writer wants to provide an overview of important events without taking the time to go through each one in great detail in succession. Ironically, while most people easily understand this concept when they read it in a novel or a history book, it is often used as a criticism of an alleged inconsistency in the Bible.
And the incident with Lot's daughter in no way places a moral seal of approval on the event; as with many historical events, the Bible records the event without moral commentary. If you read further on the history of Israel, however, you'll find that the people who sprang from this immoral union became a serious problem for Israel, God's chosen people. The Bible contains though the Bible often (in fact, seldom) makes moral commentary when reciting historical events, if you continue reading the history you will usually see the price that is paid for immoral behavior.
For what it's worth, I wouldn't take moral guidance from a book that put a seal of approval on such behavior either. But the Bible doesn't.
I hope that helps, KM.
Anonymous 9:09, the Bible would say killing yourself is a sin. Human beings are created in the image of God, making human life sacred. There is no exception for killing yourself.
If treatment involves helping these people cope with reality and accept their sex, great, and some programs do. But altering the body is not the answer; at best it's glossing over a problem without solving it. They were born they way they should be; something is wrong mentally and that is what should be corrected.
The Bible says we were created male and female (Genesis 1:27, Genesis 2:23-24, Matthew 19:4-6). God created males and females to fulfill together his design for the expression of human sexuality. He also said we are not to blur, erase, or reverse those roles. The Bible says in Deuteronomy 22:5 that men and women are not to dress as each other, and goes on to say that God hates such behavior. A lot of the material in Leviticus and Deuteronomy deals with dietary and ritual cleanliness which became obsolete after Christ established the new covenant, but the moral code of behavior was not diminished in the slightest, and human beings and our sexuality is the same as it's always been.
And regardless of whether a transsexual alters their body physically, if they have sex with the same sex, they've committed a homosexual act. If they were born with a penis and have it cut off and have sex with a male, they're still a male regardless of how they've mutilated their body and have committed homosexuality, which God strongly condemns repeatedly in both the Old Testament and New Testament (Matthew 19:4-6, Romans 1:26-27, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, 1 Timothy 1:9-10
God also says the marriage union (which is the only legitimate expression of human sexuality) is symbolic and paints a picture of the relationship between Christ and the church (Ephesians 5:25-31). I can't imagine God would be happy with any sexual behavior or alteration which undermines or misrepresents that parallel.
God created males and females with specific roles, and he doesn't take kindly to it when we usurp his design in any form.
You took both Luke 6:37 and 1 Samuel 16:7 out of context. The passage in Samuel is where Eliab, the oldest son of Jesse, is considered by Samuel as who may be the next king of Israel. Typically, a strong looking man would be favored, and Eliab probably fit that bill; the one God wanted (David) was the youngest of the family and not one you'd likely pick as king, but God knew that David's heart, while not perfect, had a genuine love for God. This passage is not in any way telling Samuel or us to disregard God's design for sex or sexuality, but is saying that God favors someone who loves Him and wants to obey Him, rather than someone who is physically attractive.
The admonition about judging is one warning not to judge from an attitude of thinking we're sinless and above sin. It does not say we we are not to evaluate behavior and determine whether it's right or wrong; in fact, it says we should help one another by pointing out our errors and helping us be accountable. Bible references are too numerous to include them all, but here are a few that may be the most illustrative: Ezekiel 3:18-21, Luke 17:1, 1 Corinthians 5:9-11, 1 Corinthians 6:2-3).
Anonymous 9:41, the Bible does mention transsexuals. It says men are not to have sex with men (and vice versa with women), regardless of how you "feel." It also says men aren't to wear women's clothing and vice versa; it blurs the distinctions God clearly made between males and females.
Anne Lamott might not be as smart as she thinks she is. It could be that, if you try to be obedient to God and read what He has to say, you'll like the things He likes and not like the things he doesn't like.
And God doesn't hate anyone; He loved human being enough to die on the cross to save us; he also hated our sin enough to die on the cross to save us from it.
Bob,
Please quote the specific verses that mention transsexualism, because the ones you cited refer only to homosexual behavior and transvestism. A male-to-female transsexual does not necessarily wear women's clothing, nor does he necessarily have sex with men, or anyone at all for that matter. So try again.
Could it be that the Bible simply makes no mention of transsexualism, as the very concept hadn't occurred until millennia after the fact? Perhaps Bob Ellis isn't as smart as he thinks he is...
"I think I've stated enough about transsexualism and gender disorders that it's become a beaten dead horse. When you pretend to be something your body clearly indicates you are not, it's a morality and a sanity issue."
Well, Bob, you say it's a dead horse that you're not going to talk about, and then you talk about it.
But you don't have anything of substance to say, other than to say penis=man, vagina=woman, which doesn't address my point.
Your brain is part of your body just as much as your genitals, kidneys, feet, and so on, are. It's a fallacy to separate mind and feelings from body. In fact, the brain knows what its emotions are by monitoring the body's responses (read A. Damasio's The Feeling of What Happens: Body and Emotion in the Making of Consciousness).
You're saying "my penis tells me who I am." Well, that's fine for you and, perhaps, for most people. But people are not merely penises and vaginas (the fixation on genitalia is yours, not mine). To ignore the totality of their experience of life and of their own bodies is simple minded, and to tell them how to live based on your experiences, assumptions, and chosen book of rules is cruel.
Your explication of the apparent double creation in Genesis is plausible, which demonstrates an important principle: whatever one's chosen source of guidance, it should be interpreted in terms of what makes sense. I don't think that your God wants you to throw away things we know to be true and to refuse to use your capacity for rational thought, but that's what you're doing.
Is there anything you don't already know? Is it possible to change your mind? Can you learn anything from people whose experience of life and of the world is different from your own?
Because if we can't, we're intellectually dead. And it all becomes just a game of "my God can beat up your God."
So, please get over your obsession with what's between people's legs, and just try to be nice to them, ok?
km
The Bible doesn't specifically mention transsexualism...but it doesn't specifically mention embezzlement or blackmail. Do you think the Bible and God then approve of these activities? Of course not; they're a form of theft.
Just as transsexualism is a form of homosexualism. It is a behavior which undermines the sexual identity and sex roles God designed for males and females.
And although I can't say with certainty that there are no transsexuals that fit what you described, I seriously doubt there are many if any who do; it simply doesn't fit the psychology. Even if they did fit your description, they are obviously doing something to misportray their sexuality, otherwise they wouldn't be a transsexual.
Why do you struggle so hard to justify something that you know the Bible doesn't approve of, and is immoral and unhealthy?
The Bible doesn't specifically mention transsexualism...but it doesn't specifically mention embezzlement or blackmail. Do you think the Bible and God then approve of these activities? Of course not; they're a form of theft.
Just as transsexualism is a form of homosexualism. It is a behavior which undermines the sexual identity and sex roles God designed for males and females.
And although I can't say with certainty that there are no transsexuals that fit what you described, I seriously doubt there are many if any who do; it simply doesn't fit the psychology. Even if they did fit your description, they are obviously doing something to misportray their sexuality, otherwise they wouldn't be a transsexual.
Why do you struggle so hard to justify something that you know the Bible doesn't approve of, and is immoral and unhealthy?
KM, your brain is a teachable, trainable, malleable part of your body. Your sex organs, like your arms and legs, are set.
I am not fixated on genitalia; genitalia are the external and most visible representation of our sex. The sex of an individual is genetic at heart. However, since most of us aren't going to run down to the nearest medical facility and have a genetic test run on ourselves, it then becomes the easiest to simply look between our legs to tell whether we're a male or female; in other words, it makes it simple.
I appreciate that you found my explanation of the Genesis creation account plausible. And you rightly said that a key to understanding things is to view them in a light that makes sense.
Does it not then make sense, that if our bodies are set and our brains are trainable, that if there is dissonance between the two, that we should train the mind to conform to the physical reality, rather that make a feeble attempt that can never be complete (you can cut off a penis, but you cannot alter genetics) to, through invasive surgery to the body, force it to conform to a malfunction of the brain? In other words, you're taking something that is functioning correctly, and tearing it up to make it conform to that which is NOT functioning correctly--but could be trained to do so without cutting up the body. That, to me, doesn't even come close to the "makes sense" threshold.
I can learn plenty, and learn plenty from other people, and do so on a daily basis. But you cannot "learn" things that are contrary to reality. If some guy in the coffee shop tells you he's Napoleon Bonaparte and you agree with him, you haven't "learned" anything, you've just joined him in his delusion.
Playing along with people's delusions may make you feel magnanimous and might make them feel affirmed, but it isn't "nice" anymore than the guy who sees your fly is open but doesn’t say anything is being “nice” or the neighbor who sees your house is on fire but says nothing is being “nice” or the doctor who knows you have cancer but says you’re fine is “nice.”
Bob,
I tried posting this earlier, but I guess it didn't take.
Earlier today you said: "The Bible does mention transsexuals."
Then about three hours later you said: "The Bible doesn't specifically mention transsexualism."
Are you for real?!
By the way, transsexualism is not a form of "homosexualism" (whatever that is...I think you just made up a word there, buddy).
Yes the brain can learn, but you cannot change a brain to accept a different identity of who that person is. That was proven by Dr. Moneys experiments where he took a child born male, changed a botched circumcision into female parts and tried to teach this young childs brain to be female. It failed miserably resulting in the eventual suicide of the patient and the suicide of his brother who was used by the Money to show what not to be. Thereby proving that no matter what the dr. did to change this child to think to be female, the child still knew he was male. Just having the parts and being told, trained, coerced and everything else, their identity of themselves remained intact. So yes the brain can learn, can be trained, but cannot change its identity.
I'm familiar with the case you cited, the one with the botched circumcision, and it actually proves my point. This boy was a boy, which is what he was supposed to be. He was not supposed to be a girl, and even when they tried to make him one, he was still a boy. That's what his genetic makeup said, and that's what his body said until it was mutilated.
These transsexuals who feel led to act in ways contrary to what nature says is reality may feel a momentary comfort at the affirmation at people sharing their delusion or surgery which makes the body appear to be what they want it to be, but it will never be that. And I don't think they will ever be at peace no matter how much they try to believe they are, because they are not who they were created to be.
Anonymous 7:20, did you notice the word “specifically?” Do you know what that word means? It means specified, or spell out, as opposed to general.
I said earlier that the Bible mentions homosexuality because it does; transsexualism is a form of homosexuality because those who indulge in it usually act as if they are the opposite sex, then have sex with the sex with their own sex while pretending they aren’t really the same sex. Despite the delusion, they are still having sex with their own sex, which is homosexuality.
A subsequent commenter wanted to know if the word “transsexual” was in the Bible, and it isn’t, but the practice is a form of homosexuality, which is mentioned in the Bible, and as the Bible says, there’s nothing new under the sun, so I’m sure the writers of the Bible were familiar with this practice in their time—and even if they weren’t, God was.
Did you know that the actual word “homosexual” was only coined in relatively modern times? It comes from the word sexual, which we all (I hope) understand, and the Greek homos, which means “same.” Despite the fact that the actual term “homosexual” is relatively new, the writers of the Bible knew quite well what homosexuality was because they described it graphically: men having sex with men, and men lying with men as they would a woman.
What’s more, transsexualism is usually included in groups and references to homosexuality (LGBT). If there was no relation, these would be LGB groups.
You’re nitpicking when it’s patently obvious what I meant when I said “specifically” tells me (if I didn’t suspect already) that you aren’t interested in learning or understanding or finding the truth.
Your primary intent seems to be try and find some technical inconsistency in an effort to justify a natural inconsistency—the inconsistency of male chromosomes and sex organs combined with “female” behavior; the inconsistency between what the body testifies to, and what you want to justify.
I’m reminded of when Jesus said in the Bible that certain people in his time strained at a gnat while swallowing a camel. It seems to be that you’re straining at the gnat of a misperceived technical inconsistency in order to justify the camel-like inconsistency of a person who acts female while their body clearly testifies that they are male (or vice versa).
This kind of dissonance should never and can never be justified.
The point with Dr Money is not boys will be boys. If you really study what they did, you would see it PROVES beyond any doubt that you CANNOT change the identity in the brain, regardless of whether it matches your sex or not! And your argument is against the entire medical and mental health community. May I ask what profession you are in that you know more than all of them in North America and the UK and all the recorded evidence they have proven beyond any doubt? If your theory was correct, then transsexuals would not feel the urgency of transition or die. We are not talking about a few psychos that have a mental problem, we are talking about thousands and thousands in US alone. The attributes you are describing fit with transvestites, who dress in females clothes for sexual purposes. If this is a sexual fetish as you are trying to present the hormones would negate all their desire and the loss of penile function would certainly turn off of transitioning. TRANSSEXUALS HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH SEX! Your theory has another hole when you mentioned the reason is for homosexuality. There is a large number that are attracted to the sex that would be opposite their birth sex, the same they are transitioning to.
Transsexuals have been lumped into the GLBT group by society and stayed there because back in 1966 and 1969 they stood up for each other when all GLBT people were being harrassed. They are not grouped together because of sexual orientation.
I am not sure what is with some religious people, but I have only faced hatred and discrimination from those that preach love everyone, and I live in a VERY redneck area. Sounds hypocritical to me, not about love and acceptance.
Make up your mind. This last post you said male brains will always be male brains and a few posts earlier you said the brains can be changed. Sounds like waffling when losing an argument to me.
It's called common sense, Anonymous, something too much of the professional community has abandoned in favor of feel-good political correctness.
People have this desire because of something imbalanced in their childhood; one study I read found that every single subject in a study of thousands had issues with absent, distant or abusive fathers. There are often issues with overbearing mothers, as well.
The brain reacts to this imbalance in the home, tries to deal with something it should never have to deal with, and becomes reprogrammed in a way that produces dissonance between the mind and the body.
The mind can be programmed into this faulty state, and it can be reprogrammed back to normalcy, as many have accomplished, though it does become harder the older one becomes, and the more one has come to accept this disconnect with the physical body.
Which is why these officials in the NY juvenile system are doing a tremendous disservice to these kids; they're making it even more difficult, should these kids get help later.
You mistake love for pandering. People who pander to this disorder and go along with the delusion aren't loving, and they aren't helping. They're avoiding the criticism and trouble of speaking the truth (plenty of that on this thread) in order to gain the facade of "peace."
It isn't a loving act to aid someone in their delusion any more than it would be a loving, positive act for a doctor to lie to a patient who had cancer and tell him he'd just fine the way he is.
The Bible says the wounds of a friend are faithful, which means sometimes the truth hurts, but it's meant to help you.
Anonymous 9:53, are you another one who feigns ignorance or density in the hopes of scoring a technical point?
The brain of a male will always belong to a male; you cannot change the sex of the person. That's what I've been saying for several days, yet some people apparently believe wishes come true. The male will always be a male and have male chromosomes, even if he thinks he's a female, and even if he cuts off his penis.
I've wasted enough time on this thread; I have other posts to make and other comments to respond to. The same old horse keeps getting beaten, with the only thing new is the desperate search for perceived technicalities to justify what can never be justified.
This thread is accepting no more comments. You may return to your fantasies undisturbed now.
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